- Russia is risking all-out war to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO
A communications disruption could only mean one thing!ID: hskn4ja
Pretty sure things are unfolding like this:
Russia minister of defense: My lord, is that legal?
Putin: I will make it legalID: hsl3t7h
I forgot to pay my phone bill!!!ID: hslg1hz
Chicken little the sky is falling the sky is falling.
This is the best tl;dr I could make,reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)
As the Russia Council prepares to meet NATO officials in Brussels on Wednesday, CNBC has a guide to why Russia cares so much about Ukraine and how far it might be willing to go to stop Ukraine from joining the alliance.
Ukraine has particular importance for Russia, given its location - it stands as a bulwark between Russia and the eastern EU states - as well as symbolic and historical importance, often being seen as a "Jewel in the crown" of the former Soviet empire.
Maximilian Hess, fellow at the Foreign Policy Research Institute, told CNBC on Tuesday that "Russia is not just seeking to prohibit Ukraine from joining the alliance - something it has sought to do since Ukraine's 2008 NATO Membership Action Plan application - but also to remove Ukraine from the Western sphere of influence to which it has moved since the 2014 Ukrainian Revolution."| Top keywords: Russia#1 Ukraine#2 Russian#3 NATO#4 U.S.#5ID: hski84u
The reason why Ukraine has moved to the Western sphere of influence is because of Russian aggression. The reaction of Ukrainian citizens to surveys has steadily moved from the majority wanting to stay aligned with Russia to the majority wanting to join the EU and NATO.
Putin has done this to himself.ID: hsksk68
So, they take some land from Ukraine and threaten more - and get all surprised and butthurt when Ukraine goes to the only other kid on the playground and asks for help.
Classic bully behavior. Zero validity to any of their arguments. As long as they don't go around trying to invade people , they have nothing to worry about from NATO or anyone else. The only reason it matters is because they want to keep invading people with impunity.ID: hsl85lu
As the Russia Council prepares to meet NATO officials in Brussels on Wednesday, CNBC has a guide to why Russia cares so much about Ukraine
Editorial, Opinion, or Analysis
your neighbors wouldn't seek to join defensive treaties if you didn't keep threatening everyone.ID: hskubnf
It's like the 1930s all over again!ID: hsle6bm
Putin: Russia and Ukraine are one people ...
... so we must show them who's the boss. It's like the drunk family patriarch beating up his children.ID: hslduu6
If you would just stand still and take my punches I would not have to punch you so much .. how dare you make me bleed my own blood!ID: hslh7zp
NATO has not been a defensive alliance for a long time now.
He’s bluffing !ID: hskl723
Famous last wordsID: hsl1ojc
You are only helping Putin and his friends by such statements. Putin has the capability and a clear goal of re creating a new Soviet style Russian empire.
Sure the west could damage the Russian economy. But dont underestimate Putins ability to accept such an outcome in order to secure a new European security order. In Putins view and many other Russians, Ukraine belongs to Russia.
I bet there were guys just like you saying he's bluffing before he took the eastern parts of Ukraine in 2014. Observe that the population of those areas were around the same as the population of say Norway. Putin literally took an average sized country in his first push. Lets not be as stupid this time and think that he wont do it. He will if he thinks he can win. He definitely thinks he can right now.ID: hslebqf
No, he always wanted to do it, but is only now finding out how much it will cost him.ID: hskyjoy
Are you gonna be on the front lines if he's not?
- NATO removes its forces from the countries which joined after 1997 (Poland, Hungary, Czechia, Latvia, Lithuania, others)
- Russia decides who gets to join NATO. Specifically, Ukraine doesn't.
- Russia, in turn, withdraws nothing.
What a generous offer! No wonder it was refused.ID: hsld80r
Yikes, basically telling NATO to roll over and give up. It's designed to make NATO reject the offer.ID: hsleed4
Year 2023 -> Putin then decides to vacation his soldiers in the newly unguarded Eastern Europe
Putin : "We must protect all Russian speakers!" .. Poland Hungary Czechia Latvia is now annexed and called "New Crimea"
NATO : What are we getting in this deal exactly?
Putin : What deal? this was all your idea .. I asked nothing in return don't you remember?
The ouster of Viktor Yanukovich seems like 20 years ago, but it was just 7. All of it set off by the Euromaidan and the Ukrainian people preferring to align with Brussels instead of Moscow.ID: hslhtu3
United States had its sticky fingers all over the Ukrainian "revolution" re: fascist coup (just look at the Azov Battallion) Why else was Hunter Biden on the board of Burisma? To pick the pockets of a weak nation and do its best to try and humiliate Russia? Sounds about right: America and friends always need a boogeyman! After losing TWO wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, they need to show the world how "tough" they are
Russia tasted Crimea and now wants the entire Ukrain cake!
Have the Little Green Men landed yet?
I think Putin sees right now that America’s apetite for war is at an all time low, especially considering the recent withdrawal from Afghanistan. I think he sees Obama not enforcing his red lines in Syria, and kind of sees Biden as Obama version 2. I think he sees Bidens fragile political position, considering all of this, and thinks that the next rest of his term are Russias best chance to strike out against the west and against NATO. Just my take, but I bet Putin sees America as the weakest it’s been in a while and the weakest it will be for a while. He sees an opportunity here that he’s trying to take advantage of.ID: hslaruu
Joke's on Putin, Biden's approval rating is in a nosedive, and we all know what US presidents do when their approval ratings dip.ID: hsletip
It was never about fighting America, it's about crushing smaller, weaker nations. This is not like a father defending his home, it's more like a father trying to beat his grown children into submission.ID: hsl3w8d
That’s my read too. And it’s pretty strategic of Putin. I wish the west would have just ignored his military buildup.ID: hsli8wb
Dont be silly, America's appetite for war knows no limit. Bombs are the biggest export, and the bloodlust will never be satisfied.
Russia is in panic right nowID: hsku4l0
Good. Putin will cave and the world will see him as the cowardly little failure he is.
Appeasement is feeding a crocodile in order to be eaten last
Ego is a hell of a thing. Putin.ID: hsklcvg
If he keeps his people focused on fake external threats they might not turn on him as they die in record numbers.
Is there any poll with figures of how many Russians actually want this war and how many doesn't? I wonder what the common Russian people feel about all this.ID: hslgziu
This probably isn’t helpful but I talk to a lot of Russians and they either A. Say that Ukraine should join whoever, they just want to stay out of it. Kind of more neutral. B. People are adamant about not doing to war and are already saying they won’t fight if such a war were to happen. They just want to survive overall in terms of the people I speak to.
American media hype this up way more than we do here in Finland. Russia is right next to us and we brush over the news of this maybe briefly once a day and don’t think about it. This Putin bullying crap has been going on for years, threats and more threats. American media is just obsessed with drama and ‘potential’ war.ID: hslhgs5
Finally someone else on reddit that sees through all the bs propaganda and isn't a spastic cunt that says 'fuck XXXXXXXX'
Not worth it for NATO to go to war. Sanction Russia and hurt their economy big time if they invade.ID: hskvir8
You do know that Russia has enough reserves to last years right? China is also backing PutinID: hskq070
The US won’t do such thing unless they want to go against China as for sure they will go on the Russian side
Calm before d Storm..
Anyone out there from Ukraine want to chime in? Are we getting blown smoke and mirrors via MSM as per the norm or do the citizens legitimately think they will be invaded in the very near futureID: hskg74t
This war has been going on since 2014 just disappeared from the headlines until last yeayear bro.
Ukrainians just dusted off old cold war bomb shelters a few weeks ago and still might be in the process of doing that for citizens and top brass if Putin does invade.
It’s honestly looking more and more of a question of “when ?” Instead of “if” an invasion will comeID: hskbu4q
Eastern Ukraine has already been annexed. The question isn't whether Russia invades but whether Russia will get more territory.ID: hskg49s
Yes, they are massing troops on the Ukraine border & the pro-russian forces are primarily out of uniform Russian officers with forced conscript troops in the trenches who will be shot if they don't fight.
Russia's #1 export is natural gas pipelines to the former soviet states & the Ukraine used to be the focus of the USSR's energy industry. The reason for the "civil war" is because Obama was working with the Ukraine government to help them set up their own independent energy industry, and Russia staged an attempted coup to prevent the Ukraine divorcing itself from the Russian economy. The coup failed when the general Ukraine citizens refused to be steam rolled and fought back. With clear proof that this was an invasion instead of a civil conflict, NATO hammered the shit out of Russia with economic sanctions and threatened military action if Russia crossed the border with uniformed troops.
Putin backed off and changed tactics to interference with the next US election while funding a candidate that would ve favorable to him (guess who that was). Trump spent much of his time attempting to reverse the US's hard line commitments to Ukrainian independence, but largely got nowhere with that ... unlike Syria where he effectively turned the country over to Russian influence & let Turkey commit genocide on the Kurds. Now that the lazy orange puppet has had his strings cut, Putin has had to default to plan B of overt military action to revert the nation back to Russian control.
The big catch to all of this is that as long as the Ukrain is not an official member of NATO, then Russia can cross the border without it being an act of war against NATO & then it would be our side declaring war against Russia to retaliate. If the Ukraine does go ahead with joining NATO (they want to, but NATO is debating it because of the political implications), then further involvement with the "civil war" would be an act of war on the part of Russia.
Current standings is that there is a bunch of Saber Rattling, but no one is going to do anything till the US midterms are up.
A good example of why Ukrainians do not want Russian in their government is Chernobyl: the melt down was because Russian engineers wanted to do experiments with how to control meltdowns, but didn't want to use a reactor on Russian soil because they knew full well what would happen if their experiment failed (and it did). So they used a Ukrainian reactor, because then it wouldn't be Russians or Russian lands they were fucking up.ID: hsl3wg6
They already have been. Look at Crimea.ID: hskkodv
Russia doesn’t want NATO on their bitdwts. From a defensive standpoint this is 100% reasonable and akin to China letting North Korea fall under a western sphere of influence.
It’s clearly a strict redline that one superpower shouldn’t cross.
The US is trying to take advance of a clearly weaker Russian superpower.
For balances sake. That shouldnt be allowed to happen.ID: hslhs0w
sorry for the long text. TLDR: some hostilities will probably happen. I do not think it will be an invasion.ID: hskn2ji
You should check the official Ukraine twitter account. Kings of shitposting.ID: hsknaqz
No one really believes or is doing anything about it. But a lot of news, yes. On Russian Facebook there is also zero awareness and there is no news at all.
It’s time!!! We haven’t been in a war in almost 4 months. These missiles and fighter jets we bought aren’t gonna justify themselvesID: hskyd0h
So… are you on the front line? You really ready to throw some human lives (American soldiers) on this?
No, Russia threatened Ukraine into wanting to join NATO, so Russia can say that they're risking all-out war to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO
This is like telling someone you're about to murder them, then getting mad at them for calling the police, then saying you'll have no choice but to murder them now because they're threatening you.ID: hslb6rd
I don’t think the “so Russia can say” part is right. Russia simply finds itself in the familiar security trap. It wanted to keep a hostile alliance off its borders, but because the border states want security against Russia they look to NATO and the West, so Russia has to use increasingly coercive measures to keep the border states out of the alliance, which makes the border states even more interested in a security guarantee.
That’s why we’re fucked: everyone is acting rationally but what looks like the rational thing is going to make everyone worse off.
they might have an secret kremlin underground aera 15 or something
Idk what Russia would gain from a war. Their entire economy would crumble.ID: hslbsbm
Security always trumps economy. If Russia can raid Ukraine and topple its government without getting stuck in an occupation then it could be rationalized as worth it.
Russia is most definetly willing to risk all out war. They have been modernizing their nuclear forces for this reason. They understand the West had a soft stomach for casualties (especially for a war not taking place in their country) and they will back down. US will back down aswell unless they created a reliable countermeasure against the Poseidon nuclear torpedo.
There's one reason for Russia's (Putin's) demands; he wants to reconstitute the Eastern Block of the Soviet Union under his personal aegis. He just has a bit of a timing issue. He's running the clock.
I keep on seeing constant news about "Russia about to invade..."
What I have never read was why, and what THE REST of the other parties have been doing.
What is your role in this, and why?
What part did you play to get to this point?
Do you mean to tell me that Russia just woke up one day and decided they "ARE ABOUT TO INVADE"?
Not invade... about to invade.
You mean there is no other context to this?
I don't know the full story, but this coordinated mass media news attack on Russia while giving out barely any detail tells me this propaganda, and you are lying to me about something.
This title seems to blithely adopt Russia's position on this issue. There's never been much momentum for Ukraine to join Nato, has there been? Why oh why is Russia in military adventure mode right now? It's debatable whether it has anything to do with NATO at all.ID: hsks8iy
Recently, yes. Since the annexation, it's a simple majority, I think I read 57 percent.
They ain't risking anything, no one is threating to attack them.
Got banned from r/russia today for laughing at someone claiming “russia is a purely defensive country who has no interest in taking new territories” lol. Takes a lot of gall to say that after crimea, especially with 100k troops on ukraine’s boarder.
I thought they would have done this during Trump’s term since he was proven to be a Russian puppet. Adam Schiff had the proof. Why would they wait to do this under Biden? Biden is very anti-Russia and told Putin to stand down at the summit.ID: hslcfyi
Alternatively bad faith theory: Russia didn’t need to resort to force while Trump was in office because it could achieve its goals without coercion.ID: hslby8s
So if one thought that XYZ was going to happen specifically because of ABC, and XYZ failed to happen as predicted, an intelligent scientist or logician might actually consider that to be a strong indication that premise ABC may have been thusly shown not to be the case. That is what an intelligent scientist or logician would conclude.
A rabid drooling ideologist, however, for whom neither scientific method nor logic would make any dent, would likely continue to believe ABC until death, since his entire world view would start to collapse were he to do anything else, absurd though ABC might be.
This is all true but hypothetical, of course.
Maybe we should just invite Russia to natoID: hsl1zvd
This article might interest you:
According to the news, Russia was supposed to have started this invasion several times already over the past six months. It’s almost like this is bullshit.ID: hskfqab
The news has announced invasions starting? Sounds like bullshit. Can you link?ID: hskdlvv
Why don't they just get Russia to join Nato as well, that way everyone would be on the same team?ID: hslg6id
Putin is on Putin's team
Ukraine belongs in NATO. If anyone needs protecting from Russia it's them. Look at Crimea.ID: hslamrz
You gonna gear up and go fight? Or are you a vaunted and elite Chairborne Ranger?ID: hslby25
Ukraine doesn’t belong in NATO precisely because it risks drawing the alliance into a war with Russia, the very thing NATO was created to avoid.
Russia would never allow Ukraine to join NATO because that would be giving a voice to something it plans to stamp out and dominate. The fact that the world has even allowed it to flex this much is insane.
It's insane because you allow it to be insane. You can't even describe yourself in context with it; they've trained you to reflexively identify with it: "Our Regime". It is not, never has been and never will be "your regime". You're not a part in it, a co-owner in it or anything.
I'm gonna risk getting yeeted by down votes by putting this into a little context
The United States did give russia its word that it world not try to expand NATO into Eastern Europe
America immediately went back on its word after the USSR fell and is continuing to expand NATO to this day
Regardless of what you think of russia, I'm not throwing a party for two powers marching us closer to nuclear extinction: all it takes it one misunderstanding or misstep and it's credits for all of usID: hsl53bm
Another context: that "word given by US" is a popular Russian myth, never supported by a signed document.
Russia's promises to never threaten, economically press, or invade Ukraine, when Ukraine agreed to give up their nuclear weapons, are a document.
Few years later followed up up a Friendship Treaty, in which Russia promised to respect existing Ukrainian bordersID: hskyuyy
Russia signed a binding legal document trading Crimea to Ukraine for it's nukes
NATO never promised to not expandID: hsl88qi
This is maybe the dumbest thing I’ve read today.
Putin pissed off Europe and usa get all the Ukraine girlsID: hskjqz6
if there is nuclear war no one will get anything
Funny, Russia won't do shit. Just like North Korea, all bark and absolutely 0 bite.
Putin needs Ukraine because of Ukraine’s arable land.ID: hskhw4f
No, Putin needs Ukraine because he does not want NATO to place its missiles in Ukraine
With Omnicron raging in the West the Russians will never get a better than right now to invade.ID: hskeumx
Omicron is probably raging in Russia as well.ID: hskujjs
As if Russia hasn't been decimated by COVID, thanks to Russian disinformation campaign (domestic and global) about the pandemic
What if they re trying to annex ukraine to rebuild the ussr
Russia is going to fight hard to retain their naval base in Sevastopol. If Ukraine joins NATO I can’t see a NATO nation from continuing to host this. From Russias perspective it’s the loose equivalent to a Chinese threat to Guam.
Against the whole world, apparently.
Also to show Kazakhs what will happen if they will become pro-west.
If Russia invades Ukraine, it will be their Vietnam.
Correction: Russia is risking all-out war in order to distract and deflect.
You could absolut flip the headline on its ass by also saying : "NATO is risking all-out war by convincing Ukraine to join their club"
Are most people here too young or delusional?!
Ukraine in NATO means nukes and USA bases next to Russia, which is like Russia to have nukes and bases in Mexico.
If your neighbor points AR-15 at your door from the fence you won't like it, huh?!!!
Whatever, declare war.
Unless they’re will to use ‘you know what’ we’d beat the ever-loving snot out of Poutine.
In 2013 Ukraine was trying to sign a EU trade treaty, which should have moved the country from Russia's orbit. With a combination of political and economical pressure, Russia coerced Ukrainian president Yanukovich to do a U-turn.
The protests erupted. A lot of Ukrainians saw EU treaty as a chance to reform and improve their country. Ukrainian oligarchs who were exporting goods to EU had high hopes for it as well. The country was divided on the issue, but pro-EU forces won. Yanukovich fled to Russia.
Russia enacted plan B: they seized Crimea and tried to carve half of Ukraine into a "Novorossia" state. Russian propaganda was shouting that after a "coup" Ukraine "does not exist". Saboteur groups tried to incite breakaway rebellions in all large Eastern Ukrainian cities.
Surprisingly for Putin, who thought that most of Ukraine dreams about joining Russia, the saboteurs had success only in two cities. Donetsk and Lugansk. Russia supported them with arms and "volunteers", but the republics were losing the war. In August 2014 the Russian military stepped in directly, and dealt few crushing blows to the Ukrainian army.
Minsk ceasefire and peace agreement was signed. In the face of military defeat, Ukraine agreed to accept Donetsk/Lugansk as autonomies, effectively giving Russia 3 million votes to influence Ukrainian politics. And an uncontrolled chunk of border. And to let Russia rewrite Ukraine-EU trade treaty to its liking.
However, hostilities did not end. The actual shape of the border line was still discussed with guns. Ukraine suffered another defeat in early 2015 in Debaltsevo, which lead to [worse] Minsk-2 ceasefire agreement. However, by summer 2015 Ukraine's military improved enough to be able to repel the Russians in battles near Marinka and Mariupol port.
Those successes let Ukraine adopt a stalling strategy. Ukraine does not reject the Minsk treaties, but simply does not implement them. It is easy to do, Russia is giving enough pretexts for it. Like, they promised to remove their troops from Donetsk and let the international observers check. And to let them monitor the border. Minor details, in Russia's view.
Loss of almost-completely-Russian Crimea and heavily-Russian Donbas changed Ukrainian electoral landscape. Pro-Ukraine and pro-EU voters are now a majority. The war consolidated pro-NATO feelings, they are also a majority now. Economic ties with EU are growing stronger each year, economic ties to Russia are cut. Russia, meanwhile, is sanctioned and hurting. In the long run, the situation works in favor of Ukraine.
Each year, Russia tries to push their agenda. Make Ukraine accept LDNR back on Russia's terms. Last round was in October 2021, accompanied by some glorious saber-rattling. Talks of full-scale invasion, nuclear bombing, WW3, all that jazz. With big military maneuvers this time. The result was as frustrating for Russia as ever. No result. "Please let international observers in first, and stop shooting Ukrainians, then we can talk". Russian foreign affairs ministry expressed their rage by publicly blaming France/Germany negotiators and.
Next month, Russia started talking about disbanding NATO itself..
Yesterday, those insane demands were predictably rejected.
//// here the facts end, and my attempt of comprehension begins
It looks like "disbanding NATO" demand was intentionally an overshot. Designed to make real Russian demands tame and reasonable in comparison.
Now, after the NATO breakup demand was predictably rejected, Russia will try to do something bad to force the West back to negotiation table. Unlikely a full-scale invasion, just something murderous enough to force Ukraine to take Russian demands seriously.
I get the feeling that if Putin starts a War with Ukraine, it will backfire on him.
Maybe the legendary Wish Granter is in the heart of Kiev so Putin needs to invade into the Ukraine to turn off the brain scorcher and reach it.
This just in: Russia says Ukraine sent sneak attacks so Russias response will be the total ransacking of Ukraine
That’s a good way to get the Ukraine to join the EU and NATO.
Cant the EU just do a rug pull and Emergency power Ukraines membership overnight.. that would be great. Some affirmative action on the west side.
I know there is far more to it but is this all because of Ukraines EU membership application?
Can we just go ahead and take out Russia for the good of ALL mankind? Their only major exports are fail videos and banned nerve agents.
Why does anyone care let them have itID: hsklwtu
Pretty sure Ukrainians care.
Fake news. A country can’t join NATO if they have a contested border which Ukraine currently does with Russia and Crimea.ID: hskurfd
*with Russia. Crimea belongs to Ukraine.
let em have it.
lets go to war not enough soldiers time to draft men and women war for equality and ukraine
Ukraine is in Putin trap because Ukraine cant and will not join NATO in any way due to conflict. Putin plays very long 4D chess game.
It's a bluff
It's like a reverse-domino theory - except Russia isn't Socialist anymore.
Lol you really think nato will help you?
Who is going to war? The US isn’t going to war with Russia. Maybe some regional conflict that’s none of our business.
GOP soon: Biden is trying to start a war so he can steal our lord saviour Trump's presidency.ID: hslab5o
BTW, you guys promised W. Bush was gonna declare martial law so he could stay in office in 2004.... AND 2008. You promised twice!
So when is he gonna do that? I'm still waiting.
Honestly, I'm surprised Russia is not demanding that any foreign military presence is permanently banned for all states worldwide forever. It's quite ridiculous that there are "defence" forces for any nation stationed outside of said nation's borders.
he is bluffin and i say it because 1 putin is no dummy, 2 he isnt a religious zelot, meaning that what putin relish the most in this life is money and power, and he aint gonna risk that for ukraine or to prevent a distant war conflict with NATO cus he know that by that time he will most likely died of old age. all putin does he do it for only one reason, its not to protect his country or his people is to protect himself which i dont blame tbh.
Putin really need to learn history. He is being manipulated to believe he can win like the egomaniacs before him. We will all lose, just like those before us
But some of them made a pátuwvota (a shield made of hide) and with their creative power, made it fly through the air.
On this, many people flew to a big city, attacked it, then returned so fast that no one knew where they came from. Soon the people of many cities were making pátuwvotas and flying on them to attack one another. So corruption and war came to the Third World as it had to the others.
Isn't this is aimed to divert attention from the Jan 6 investigation?